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  • #8409

    symoncockill
    Participant

    When can we send our Ecu back to have upgrade map put on please

    #8410

    Philip Myatt
    Moderator

    Hi Symon, as soon as we have the finalised map available we’ll send out a request to everyone to send ECU’s in for update.
    Looks like it will be a couple of weeks yet.
    Philip

    #8411

    symoncockill
    Participant

    Are we going to have it for Silverstone

    #8414

    Martin Short
    Participant

    Hi Philip. A bit confused as we already sent our one back to you and it’s been returned? By the way, the speedo stopped working on its return, it was working previously. Not sure if this is ECU related or just a coincidence? Another C1 yesterday at Silverstone, post ECU remap, was afflicted with the same issue.

    #8415

    symoncockill
    Participant

    Hi Martin all the ECUs had to be returned to C1 for checking and sealing ,they are due to be upgraded in the next 2/3 weeks with remap (more performance) the ECU will need to be returned to C1 when the have the map all sorted by C1 .

    #8417

    Martin Short
    Participant

    AH! Thanks!

    #8419

    Philip Myatt
    Moderator

    Hi Martin
    The first stage was purely a data collection process, the maps on the Ecu’s have been downloaded and stored, no changes have been made yet.
    There are a number of variations to both hardware and software supplied as standard fitment by Citroen and we needed to understand all the variables so that the upload will be compatible with all the different types.
    We haven’t started the upload process yet, that will commence when its all been thoroughly tested.
    Philip

    #8421

    Martin Short
    Participant

    Can’t wait for the extra urge lol. Thanks PM 🙂

    #8445

    Rincewind
    Participant

    Hi,

    out of curiosity, how much development work has gone into the “final” map that will available for the various age ranges of the vehicles each team has? I see there is “extra performance” available – and this concerns me a little. For example, we’re running a 2007MY C1 and has anyone done any engine bench testing with that particular map to understand if there are any weak spots of the calibration? Citroen homologate and declare their engine power at 6000rpm, so what is the “declared power” of the new re-map, will it affect the OBD flags in the car if it starts to see changes in the emissions etc? Has there been any durability work carried out to ensure that the increase in performance – no matter how small, will not put the engine under increased pressure resulting in component failures and so on?

    Sorry for the questions, but this is what I do for my “day job” and I have to declare engine powers etc for type approval with government departments and I’ve seen re-maps grenade engines because of the stresses put on them. I know we’re only talking about a small 3 cylinder engine, but this is where the stress can be seen. I’m all for a bit more performance, but not at the expense of cutting our teams ability to complete the 24 hour race at the end of April.

    Cheers
    Nic

    #8460

    ASRCorse
    Participant

    Philip
    With the different ECU options between Euro 4 and Euro 5 cars and the different connections on the ECU. Have you developed both a Euro 4 and Euro 5 option. You cannot run a Euro 4 unit on a Euro 5 homologated vehicle. The parts information which has been supplied to you clearly shows all the ECU options and the build dates when the different ECU options were fitted to particular cars. Also do not forget that there is a difference in the ECU diagnostic functions between Euro 4 and Euro 5. As Nic correctly states any changes will need to be fully tested across all engine options and you need to ensure that there is no possiblty of the emissions levels being affected as all cars have to pass a MOT test.

    For information there are 3 different ECUs for Euro 4 cars. A unit fitted from launch to 31st May 2008, one from 1st June 2008 to 31st December 2008, and the final unit fitted from 1st Jan 2009 to the introduction of Euro 5.

    Euro 5 there are three units. 1 for vehicles fitted with ESP and then two units for non ESP vehicles. 1 from introduction to the 1st March 2012 and then the unit fitted from the 1st March 2012 to the introduction of the New C1.

    What guarantee do you plan to provide for your ECU and will you provide replacement units to any owners where the download fails or the unit will not accept the download. The car has demonstated over the last two years that the reliability of the standard unit is excellent and it would be sad if this is compromised and teams start to have breakdowns and there is a high level of non finishers. Regards Ian

    #8464

    Rincewind
    Participant

    Evening all.
    I’d have thought that the best way to ensure that no one is “fiddling” with their ECU’s is to either read them prior to the race and ensure that they are correct – or you put them through scrutineering, “seal” them and then read them post race to see if they have been running the correct calibration. If they have tampered, they are disqualified.

    When you read the ECU, you should get the software cal I.D. from it that can be checked against the Citroen database. that should be the flag for tampering or not.

    Can the engine cal be flashed in via the OBD port, or does the ECU have to be cracked open to get to the chip-sets? The last project I did on ECU software re-maps involved a French manufacturer and the guys who did the work had to crack open the ECU which terrified me as I had to then take the car and do an emissions test with it at Millbrook. The car didn’t make it through the emissions dyno test because the calibration they have flashed into it, could not cope with a drive cycle and it screwed the emissions up left right and centre. It increased the power but it damaged the engine and put the OBD light on. We don’t want that happening in a race – especially the 24 hour one.

    As Ian says, there are too many ECU’s per vehicle MY to confuse things and we don’t want people falling by the wayside due to cal’s that have not been fully bench-marked.
    Nic

    #8466

    tim Storrar
    Participant

    My view is that ECU maps should remain standard, no remapping. Lets keep cars that are remarkably reliable in that condition and not trying to find a couple of extra BHP at the possible expense of reliability.

    Just as an afterthought, why not have the organisers carry a pool of tested ECUs and fit them to the fastest top ten cars post qualifying? This would at least level the playing field for the small teams that don’t have the budget to find ways round tweaking the ECU for more performance.

    #8467

    Philip Myatt
    Moderator

    Hi all
    A few points to clarify what is happening with the ECU’s.
    1) There has been quite a lot of murmuring about cars with extra performance due to modified ECU’s and the extra power available.
    2) The object of this exercise is to ensure that there is a level playing field for everyone.
    3) It is not a criteria of this exercise to find more power, the engines are intrinsically reliable and we do not want to affect that.
    4) We will not be changing the standard rev limit.
    5) Over 150 ECU’s have now had their maps downloaded, this has provided a very valuable database for scrutiny. Thank you to everyone who has sent their ECU to be read.
    6) The parameters of the new “club map” will not stray outside anything on the OE versions.

    To be clear, we are not looking for any power enhancements, its purely equivalency.

    Philip

    #8468

    Rincewind
    Participant

    Hi Philip,

    could you confirm what the “club map” parameters will be please as there are so many layers to an ECU controlling various aspects of the engine from power, emissions and drive by noise requirements.

    Have you had any issues with OBD P-codes flagging up under extreme loads as in full power and torque demand which is where our cars will spend a lot of the 24 hours?

    If you are happy with an ECU that does not show any modification – will you leave the OE calibration in the ECU and “seal it” or do we have to have a club map flashed into it?
    Sorry, my vehicle homologation brain is in full swing at the moment as I’m emissions and power testing for a new vehicle and we’re reading codes of the OE ECU to make sure that they are as they should be, plus I’ve got some meetings coming up with the FIA soon to discuss such items for another related project I’m about to kick off.

    Thanks
    Nic

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